Best Practices for an EFRW Setup

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Andrew (grayhat)
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:59 pm

Re: Best Practices for an EFRW Setup

Post by Andrew (grayhat) »

KO4RSJ wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2023 3:28 pm Andrew...that post really got me thinking! I've got some questions/comments.

1. You said, ..."that the sequence should be the following: antenna wire -- 9:1 transformer -- choke -- coax -- trx -- counterpoise --" That's somewhat different than what I've been using. The Tufteln EFRW has the counterpoise incorporated at the feed point (pictures here https://www.tufteln.net/listing/1226227 ... -long-wire) to make the following sequence: antenna wire -- 9:1 transformer -- counterpoise (I assume connected to the antenna wire side of the BNC connector) -- choke -- coax -- tuner -- trx. I have no idea if my sequence would change any of your assumptions, but it is different. Comments?

2. Why have the radiator feed point 3 foot above ground and not at ground level?

3. I'll need to do some study/research on the 4NEC2 models before I can really understand what they're telling me. Right now it's like a dog watching TV.
As for the connections (antenna/counterpoise, transformer, choke, trx) look at the attached image which I hope will help understanding the setup I described, regarding the height of the feedpoint you may place it lower, but I prefer keeping it raised even if not so much, then about the 4NEC, no hurry but since you asked about "pattern" and since it depends from how one sets up the antenna, then the solution would be modeling the antenna in NEC and then... it's a "random" plus installed in different conditions at each activation, so the pattern will be somewhat "random" as well :D
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KO4RSJ
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Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:27 pm

Re: Best Practices for an EFRW Setup

Post by KO4RSJ »

Great image...helps a bunch. Are there any advantages and/or disadvantages to having the counterpoise connected to the feed-point ground as opposed to having it connected to the transceiver? What is the ultimate purpose of a counterpoise in a EFRW setup?
73 and God Bless...Mike (KO4RSJ)
Shenandoah Valley, Virginia
Andrew (grayhat)
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:59 pm

Re: Best Practices for an EFRW Setup

Post by Andrew (grayhat) »

KO4RSJ wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:09 am Great image...helps a bunch. Are there any advantages and/or disadvantages to having the counterpoise connected to the feed-point ground as opposed to having it connected to the transceiver? What is the ultimate purpose of a counterpoise in a EFRW setup?
If you DON'T use a choke, then your whole coax feedline will act as a counterpoise instead of acting as a transmission line, that is, it will radiate and receive RF (which means wasting RF in TX and generally increasing noise in RX), if instead you're using a choke after the 9:1 then the coax won't be able to act as a counterpoise (or at least as a good one), so you will need to connect the counterpoise to the 9:1 ground connection and not to your rig, if you think at it for a split second and focus on the purpose of the common mode choke, the reason should be clear :D
W7UDT
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Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2023 11:30 am

Re: Best Practices for an EFRW Setup

Post by W7UDT »

Andrew, Great question! And many great responses too! Several confirmed my best practices, and gave me better understanding to the topic.

de W7UDT
Andrew (grayhat)
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:59 pm

Re: Best Practices for an EFRW Setup

Post by Andrew (grayhat) »

KO4RSJ wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:09 am What is the ultimate purpose of a counterpoise in a EFRW setup?
Forgot this one, for an antenna to radiate, a current must flow on it, for a current to flow, an equal and opposite current must flow "elsewhere", now this "elsewhere" is some path with the lowest impedance to the RF currents, and lacking another conductor, that is our counterpoise or ground stake, those currents will flow on the external surface of the coax braid, this isn't desirable for a number of reasons, including malfunctions, so we use a choke to stop the coax acting as a counterpoise and, at the same time, we add a proper counterpoise wire to get back in control over the current flow and to make the antenna work the better we can and have the coax feeder only act as a feedline and not as a part of the radiating system
KO4RSJ
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:27 pm

Re: Best Practices for an EFRW Setup

Post by KO4RSJ »

Thanks Andrew,

Well explained. If I may, just one more question...at what approximate power level does the choke make a significant difference? In my limited experience, it seems like QRP power levels (~5W) just don't need a choke? Does the choke help at QRP power levels?

73...Mike
73 and God Bless...Mike (KO4RSJ)
Shenandoah Valley, Virginia
Andrew (grayhat)
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:59 pm

Re: Best Practices for an EFRW Setup

Post by Andrew (grayhat) »

KO4RSJ wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 6:10 pm Thanks Andrew,

Well explained. If I may, just one more question...at what approximate power level does the choke make a significant difference? In my limited experience, it seems like QRP power levels (~5W) just don't need a choke? Does the choke help at QRP power levels?

73...Mike
Mike, you're looking at it just from the point of view of "nasty effects during transmission", that isn't the only way, let me expand it; first of all there's nothing like "power levels" when it comes to common mode currents, the point is that a feedline (coax) should work as a feedline and not as part of the radiating system, let's say we have a "random" wire antenna fed using around 17ft of coax and we don't use a choke nor a counterpoise, our coax runs on the ground for some length and then goes to the antenna feedpoint, now we start trasmitting with 5W and since we don't have a counterpoise the antenna will use the coax braid as the "counterpoise", the latter will at all effect act as part of the antenna so it will radiate, now when we trasmit, part of our 5W will be radiated by the coax and since it isn't exactly a good radiator and lays on ground, that part will be almost totally wasted (which isn't a good thing, we aren't putting out some KW :D), if instead we place a choke after the 9:1 transformer and use a counterpoise, the coax will just work as a feedline and the antenna will radiate much better that little amount of power we are sending on the air
Brian - K3ES
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri May 27, 2022 12:55 pm
Location: NW Pennsylvania

Re: Best Practices for an EFRW Setup

Post by Brian - K3ES »

Andrew (grayhat) wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 6:38 am Mike, you're looking at it just from the point of view of "nasty effects during transmission", that isn't the only way, let me expand it; first of all there's nothing like "power levels" when it comes to common mode currents, the point is that a feedline (coax) should work as a feedline and not as part of the radiating system, let's say we have a "random" wire antenna fed using around 17ft of coax and we don't use a choke nor a counterpoise, our coax runs on the ground for some length and then goes to the antenna feedpoint, now we start trasmitting with 5W and since we don't have a counterpoise the antenna will use the coax braid as the "counterpoise", the latter will at all effect act as part of the antenna so it will radiate, now when we trasmit, part of our 5W will be radiated by the coax and since it isn't exactly a good radiator and lays on ground, that part will be almost totally wasted (which isn't a good thing, we aren't putting out some KW :D), if instead we place a choke after the 9:1 transformer and use a counterpoise, the coax will just work as a feedline and the antenna will radiate much better that little amount of power we are sending on the air
Hi Andrew,

I want to respectfully offer another perspective.

Context is important, so here is mine. I enjoy operating CW-mode QRP in the field, particularly for POTA. I describe my style of operating as backpack portable, meaning that I am easily able to hike with my station. Sometimes the hike is several miles, but can be short (as in operating from a table in a picnic area) or very short (as in operating from my truck in a parking lot). Another aspect important to my operating style, is the ability to rapidly deploy and tear-down of my station, so I can do multi-activation roves when desired. All of this means that I try to minimize size, weight, and number of components, while still getting my contacts.

With that background, I use both EFHW and EFRW antennas. I deploy them without using a choke, and often without any counterpoise except my 15 ft RG-316 feedline. I accept sub-optimum performance, including the losses, because it simplifies my station, while still letting me make contacts. I guess I should also acknowledge that detrimental effects on operation due to "RF in the shack" would cause me to change my configuration, but so far that hasn't been an issue at 5, or even 10 watts.

I take no issue with your technical assessment, but I want to clarify that there can be valid reasons to deviate from the optimum.

73 de Brian - K3ES
Andrew (grayhat)
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:59 pm

Re: Best Practices for an EFRW Setup

Post by Andrew (grayhat) »

Brian, maybe I was unclear, for portable QRP use, lacking a counterpoise and using the coax as a counterpoise is acceptable and by the way, in such a case, willing to use a choke (e.g. to prevent issues due to RF aka CMC), the latter should be placed near the transceiver end of the coax and not near the antenna, what I wanted to remark is the fact that having a proper counterpoise (and by the way a choke) will improve the radiation and since we're dealing with a few W, this is a good thing, then there's no rule carved in stone :D
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