EFRW and VNA

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Andrew (grayhat)
Posts: 175
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:59 pm

EFRW and VNA

Post by Andrew (grayhat) »

Folks, I've had this idea floating in my skull for some time now... but currently I don't have a VNA available, so I'm asking if someone ever tried what follows

When it comes to EFRW antennas we're still following some rather old and established rules about the radiator length and the use of a 9:1 transformer, not that such "rules" are bad, they just work, but the infos they're based on date back to a time when VNAs didn't even exist or were stuff only available in high level labs

Nowadays we have the luxury of cheap and portable VNA units, so... did someone ever try connecting an EFRW wire with one of the "good lengths" directly to a VNA, w/o a 9:1 or whatever and measure the R and J values on different bands and with different EFRW setups (e.g. the ones mostly used in POTA activation or for at home EFRW installation), such a test may offer some better infos about the true impedance of such an antenna and may allow to optimize both, the "good length" and the transformer ratio

Again, do you know if someone ever tried running such an "experiment" ?
KL7MJ
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon May 15, 2023 9:06 pm

Re: EFRW and VNA

Post by KL7MJ »

I'll give it a go if we get some clear weather this weekend!
Andrew (grayhat)
Posts: 175
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:59 pm

Re: EFRW and VNA

Post by Andrew (grayhat) »

KL7MJ wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 3:37 pm I'll give it a go if we get some clear weather this weekend!
That should be interesting, my suggestion is to start with one of the "recommended lengths" and analize it to obtain R/J at various frequencies (bands), at that point one may either act on the length or (probably better) decide for a different ratio, for example using a 16:1 instead of a 9:1, at any rate I believe it will be interesting AND useful to the whole Ham community !
KL7MJ
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon May 15, 2023 9:06 pm

Re: EFRW and VNA

Post by KL7MJ »

Here's what I got from 3 different EFHW setups this weekend

First a 35.5/17 with a 9:1 unun:
35_17_91.png
35_17_91.png (12.91 KiB) Viewed 4916 times
Then a 35.5/17 without an unun:
35_17_no_balun.png
35_17_no_balun.png (13.51 KiB) Viewed 4916 times
Finally a 29/17 without an unun:
29_17_no_balun.png
29_17_no_balun.png (13.07 KiB) Viewed 4916 times

Mike, KL7MJ
Andrew (grayhat)
Posts: 175
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:59 pm

Re: EFRW and VNA

Post by Andrew (grayhat) »

KL7MJ wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 10:18 am Here's what I got from 3 different EFHW setups this weekend
Interesting, but having the R/J (resistive and reactive) values and/or the impedance value would have been more useful, since with that one could be able to find out a better tranformation ratio for the UnUn, just to make an example, playing with NEC, I found that at some radiator lengths, a 16:1 UnUn (800<->50 Ohm) gives a pretty "flat" SWR curve :D
KL7MJ
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon May 15, 2023 9:06 pm

Re: EFRW and VNA

Post by KL7MJ »

35.5/17 with Unun
swr_35_17_unun.png
swr_35_17_unun.png (12.42 KiB) Viewed 4018 times
rj_35_17_unun.png
rj_35_17_unun.png (24.33 KiB) Viewed 4018 times
KL7MJ
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon May 15, 2023 9:06 pm

Re: EFRW and VNA

Post by KL7MJ »

35.5/17 without Unun
swr_35_17.png
swr_35_17.png (13.48 KiB) Viewed 4018 times
rj_35_17.png
rj_35_17.png (21.35 KiB) Viewed 4018 times
KL7MJ
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon May 15, 2023 9:06 pm

Re: EFRW and VNA

Post by KL7MJ »

29/17 without Unun
swr_29_17.png
swr_29_17.png (13.03 KiB) Viewed 4018 times
rj_29_17.png
rj_29_17.png (22.53 KiB) Viewed 4018 times
Andrew (grayhat)
Posts: 175
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:59 pm

Re: EFRW and VNA

Post by Andrew (grayhat) »

not totally sure, since I'll need to run more verifications, but I believe that it may be worth trying a 16:1 in place of the 9:1, the resulting SWR curve may possibly become more "flat"
KL7MJ
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon May 15, 2023 9:06 pm

Re: EFRW and VNA

Post by KL7MJ »

I found a video for a 4:1/9:1/16:1 combo. I'll add it to my to-do list.
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